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seen Jun 13 at 20:49

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Mar
9
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
In the meantime, I accepted @Alex's answer, even though I don't necessarily agree with it - it was a good, reasoned answer, and pretty much provided what I asked for (even though I was not convinced by it).
Mar
9
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
@Alex I am accepting your answer, even though I don't necessarily agree with it - it is a good, reasoned answer, and pretty much provided what I asked for (even though I am not convinced by it).
Mar
9
awarded  Scholar
Mar
9
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
@DoubleAA not hidden reasons, but the obvious ones, from learning omek hapshat, and referencing other backgrounds and context. Most of my reasoning has been mentioned throughout the threads, I will try to collate it all into an answer. Sorry I left this until just after its day of relevancy... I got too busy, then forgot about it - until my seuda guest mentioned this himself :).
Mar
9
accepted Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
Mar
9
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
Btw, I don't know what Hazony discusses, but there are independant sources (even non-Jewish ones) that (apparently) corroborate him being a powerful minister.
Mar
9
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
Your 3rd paragraph, and @Alex's comment, I think shed some light on the adamant refusal by most of the current religious community to discuss the other existing opinions - namely, leaders who are not "from ours", i.e. not of our religious stream, should be shunned, belittled, or retconned back into our stream. This is how many historical rabbis are often depicted wearing a black coat and shtreimel, even if they lived hundreds of years before these became popular amongst the Polish nobility... ala your "Moshe in a shtreimel" comment.
Mar
9
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
+1, that looks like a very interesting book, along the lines of what I was hoping to find. I will definitely look into that. I like what you wrote, about Mordechai being more of a political, or rather even a nationalistic, figure. This does not necessarily mean he was a religious one.
Mar
9
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
While there are some good points here, none of this refers to him being specifically religious, or a tzaddik in any way. There is room to discuss whether he was purely a religious figure, or more likely a political / nationalistic one.
Mar
9
revised Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
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Feb
13
revised Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
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Feb
13
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
@jake I didnt mean to be completely "independant" of midrashic statements, rather I'm interested in the basis of those statements. Very often, midrashim are based on something, and extrapolate/interpolate/etc to the midrash, rather than just basing it on itself. Especially when it stands to reason in other directions.
Feb
13
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
@avi I'm not "withholding" information, I just have my own possible (and incomplete) answer to the question. While self-answers are of course acceptable on SE, it is also good form not to answer immediately after posting - that's why I'm waiting for a few answers first (and, perhaps, someone else will give my answer better than I). I also don't expect it to turn to discussion, but there is definitely room for a clear, complete explanation.
Feb
13
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
yeah, that's what I was referring to. Either way, it is "proof" inasmuch as the Midrash says it is... not that you're saying it is proof in the first place...
Feb
13
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
Very good, thanks - though so far you've mostly rebuked my (as yet unspoken) arguments, not presented anything that really supports the "religious leader" point of view. As for your points - 1. Whether or not Mordechai was a "prominent person" is a different question from whether he was religious. 2. your comment re Ezra/Nechamia, while making sense, would be difficult to accept since he is supposed to be present in Persia afterwards. 3. Re Yechanya, this is the historical context, not just from those two words. I will save the rest of my comments for an answer... :)
Feb
12
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
Also btw, this "proof" is actually based on this issue itself - i.e. you're bringing proof that Mordechai is righteous, based on a midrash, which is based on the assumption that Mordechai is righteous - circular logic ;). So, you're back at relying on the Midrash, that Mordechai is righteous.... (which I'm not saying is wrong...)
Feb
12
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
Thanks @jake, that's the type of thing I was looking for - though this is a bit "weak", so to speak. To start with, "tzadikim" is still open to interpretation, especially when it is in comparison to reshaim (see also re Noach, "ונוח איש צדיק תמים היה בדורותיו", the opinion that relative to his generation he is to be considered a Tzaddik). Mordechai wasn't necessarily a bad fellow, even by the "non-religious" theory he still seemed to be a stand-up guy, but by secular standards. But, this is a good start :)
Feb
12
awarded  Student
Feb
12
comment Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
@follick I'm not ignoring, I'm just not taking it necessarily at face value - as noted in the question itself, these shouldnt always be accepted literally, especially when there is (or seems to be) evidence to the contrary. Besides that, there are other opinions! Yes, within the meforshim and Jewish tradition, this other opinion does exist, yet it seems to be forgotten, neglected, even forsaken - but it is still a valid, pre-existing traditional opinion nonetheless.
Feb
12
revised Mordechai - Religious Leader or Political figure?
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