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18h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA First, pointing out that that Bach holds the Shok to be the lower leg. Secondly, instead of continuing to extend the back and forth, I recommend people look into the sources I quoted and will understand what I wrote to be accurate.
19h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA I recommend reviewing all my comments and people could see the quoted sources. Good night.
19h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA In case you misunderstood what I wrote: You indicated that the Aruch HaShulchan was completely disagreeing with the Bach, which is not the case. Regarding up to a Tefach, the Bach also says that up to a Tefach is okay. The Aruch HaShulchan was disagreeing with the sources that the Bach quoted (and also disagreed with) that even less than a Tefach is a problem. Regarding objective standards, I was not saying that the Aruch HaShulchan agrees with the Bach, just that he doesn't disagree with him in the section that you cited.
19h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA That part of the body is already Ervah automatically-and I don't know how one could read otherwise in my words. The pasuk quoted is making clear that head hair that one may otherwise not think is Ervah-is in fact Ervah.You're 2nd point-you were asking for a source that Ervah is objective, which I provided.The Bach makes clear that even certain areas one may think would be fine to have uncovered are in fact Ervah (and therefore because many in society may consider immodest dress to be adequately modest, does not allow one to uncover the Shok(or other areas that are objectively Ervah).
19h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA In terms of you quoting the Aruch HaShulchan, if you look at the Bach, you will see that the Aruch HaShulchan is only disagreeing with some of the sources the Bach quotes, rather than the Bach, with whom he appears to agree that up to a Tefach is okay. In any case, the Aruch HaShulchan does not dispute the Bach's point that Shok is an objective standard (as well as the other Ervah he refers to).
19h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA It's apparent from the context that "hair" refers to head hair. In any case, look at what the Bach wrote about Shok (like hair) - you wouldn't think that Shok is Ervah, so the pasuk clearly demonstrates it is.
19h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA Thanks for pointing that out. The Ba"Ch quotes the Gemara and is even more explicit - when he notes one might think that there is no issue with hair (and some of the other Ervah) and then notes that these pesukim clearly demonstrate otherwise - that there is an objective source.
19h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA While I presented the source in Hebrew for your benefit, just to paraphrase for others. The Bach (Rabbi Yoel Sirkis - known by the acronym of his work "Bayis Chadash" - Ba"Ch), quotes verses from the Book of Yeshyahu and Shir HaShirim, with respect to the Shok, a (married) woman's hair and voice (when singing) to demonstrate clearly that the places of Ervah are objective (objective Ervah does exist). I'd recommend checking out the source in full as I reference the link above. Thank you for your question and efforts to arrive at a source. I'm happy to have helped demonstrate otherwise
20h
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA Here's a source - the Bach (1561/62-1640) an early Acharon who wrote about 400 years ago (Siman 75, S"K 2) beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x187: ונראה דנקט שוק דאפילו פחות מטפח נמי חשוב ערוה וכדנפקא לן (כ״ד ע״א) מקרא (ישעיה מ״ז ב) גלי שוק עברי נהרות וכתיב (שם ג) תגל ערותך דמשמע כל שוק הוי ערוה אפילו פחות מטפח...מה שאין כן שוק שלה אי לאו דגלי לן קרא דערוה היא, וכן קול ושער הוה אמינא דאין לחוש להן אפילו באשת איש, אי לאו דכתיב קרא (שיר השירים ב׳ י״ד) כי קולך ערב, ושערך כעדר העזים (שם ל׳ אי) דמדמשבח לה קרא בגוייהו שמע מינה תאוה הוא, והכי מוכח להדיא ממה שכתב רש״י וז״ל שוק
1d
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA I was going to reference that. It would be nice to invest the time to get the sources for the Rishonim. In any case, the authors of the Chayei Adam and Mishna B'rura would define what areas objectively refer to ervah if it is classified as objectively ervah. If you find the source from a Rishon, please let me know. But, again, major Poskim (who are Acharonim) should suffice in any case as reliably defining ervah. Often answers are uncovered with proper time investment (lack of time availability shouldn't indicate whether Rishonim didn't offer such an objective definition).
1d
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA - From "Woman & the Mitzvot" - "According to the sources quoted, one must cover the leg to the knee and the arm to the elbow. In either case, the need to cover further extremities depends upon local custom". Also, it's important to note that the halacha is different in general and in relation to tznius as per davening. So, just because there are opinions that say that in areas where someone may recite K'riyas Shema in the presence of women dressed a certain way, does not reflect on her obligations as per tznius. That's the distinction that Rav Moshe mentioned - uncovered hair - Shema
1d
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA I would love to answer fully, but time is limited. To say that Tefach discounts the possibility of the Shok being asur by an objective standard discounts whether any amount up to a Tefach showing would be b'di avad. Pg. 187/188 - "Woman & the Mitzvot" - P'ri Megadim, Orach Chaim 75, Mishbitzos Zahav and Mishna B'rura: "The shok extends from the knee upward, hence below the knee poses no problem wherever women customarily leave it exposed." (Assuming it covers the knee when sitting, as well) Also, in this context, see Mishna: Chullin ch. 10, Hullin 134b, Rambam - מעשה הקרבנות - ט: י
1d
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA Didn't reference you in the previous comment. Are you looking for a Rishon that defines "Zero'a" and "Shok" (for example, while using language such as "everyone agrees that such is the definition"). Why would one think that these standards mentioned in the gemara are subjective (based on societal "norms") rather than objective? It's clear from the gemara that this is what "ervah" is, rather than something relevant to a given time period (for example).
1d
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
The gemara (Kesuvos, 72b) - A woman is halachically obligated to cover her arms (Ze'roa). Most opinions hold that "ze'roa" refers to the elbow (the more lenient opinion). The "Shok" (B'rachos, 24a) - different opinions whether this refers to down to the ankle. According to the above link, the Chafetz Chaim (M"B, Siman 75, S"K 2) holds that the "shok" refers to the leg up to the knee and therefore a woman should cover at least past her knees (which would include when sitting). These are two examples, aside from other areas that should be covered (e.g, avoiding a plunging neckline).Why a Rishon?
1d
comment What are “universal minimum” standards of tznius for halachic purposes?
@DoubleAA There are certainly some communities that have a higher standard of tznius and others who have a more basic standard, both within accepted halachic standards. Someone should respect a community they visit if it has higher standards for tznius. In terms of sources for an objective minimal standard, I would recommend this link - yeshiva.org.il/wiki/…
Jun
20
comment Telling G-d Lashon Harah
shmirashalashon.blogspot.com/2006/12/…
May
22
comment Do primary sources unequivocally record coming of the Moshiach and establishing world order
@Adel Are you referring to my answer or to the comment on my answer? In my answer I quoted the Book of Yeshayah (Isaiah), certainly a primary source. In the Tanach, there are numerous primary sources for the Mashiach and the Messianic era. In fact, religions that followed Judaism pick up many ideas from Judaism. For example, Islam's belief in the Messiah (Mahdi) was preceded by Judaism and the prophecies of Jewish prophets by roughly 1500 years (and this is just in reference to those prophets). For example the non-Jewish prophet Bilaam prophesied about the Messiah (as recorded in The Torah):-)
May
21
comment Belief that a dead man will be the Messiah - Kfira?
@Jewels While the belief about Lubavitchers that the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe is (and/or will be) the Mashiach is quite common, I'd recommend you take a look at a book on the subject - amazon.com/Rebbe-Messiah-Scandal-Orthodox-Indifference/dp/…. If you review this book, you will see that while certainly more commonplace (and a very significant issue), the belief of the Rebbe being the Mashiach is still 2nd to a much more significant problem, that while certainly less prevalent, would have major implications on many areas, including kashrus, eidus related issues, among others.
Apr
25
comment Rabbinical suppport for reducing noise at weddings
Absolutely. I would suggest contacting Gedolim and encouraging them to address this issue. Often, some important issues may not receive the attention they deserve, but when a "light" is shined on the issue and attention is called to it, it can quickly get the proper attention. This is also something important I have wanted to have changed for a while (and briefly tried). יישר כוחך and הצלחה רבה for you and any who try to get this issue properly addressed!
Apr
25
comment When Do We Finish Bowing in the Aleinu?
Basically, we bend the knees during the words "ואנחנו כורעים" and bow during the word "ומשתחוים" (Shulchan Shlomo: Siman 132, Sif 2) See my answer below for more.