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Suppose there is a person who openly denies the divinity of the Torah, breaks the Sabbath and declares himself an atheist, but goes to synagogue for the sense of community or for cultural reasons. Can he be counted in the minyan, lead the prayers, or read from the Torah? I am asking of course from a traditional or Orthodox perspective.

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Welcome to Judaism.SE, and thanks very much for the provocative question! – Isaac Moses Jun 17 '11 at 0:44
Doesn't Rabbi Y. Salanter say that nowadays there are no more mumars leteiavon, only mumars lehachis? So the category of tinok shenishba shouldn't exist. – Adam Mosheh May 13 '12 at 17:03
@AdamMosheh, please check your source on that. I'm inclined to believe that the opposite in fact was said. No one today who understands exactly what it means to violate the commandments to anger G-d in fact does so. On the other hand, our desires for forbidden things haven't decreased any. – Ze'ev Felsen Aug 21 '12 at 6:54
@Ze'evFelsen - Cf. Igeret Ha-Musar. – Adam Mosheh Aug 22 '12 at 1:46

3 Answers

up vote 5 down vote

I haven't seen it inside, but:

"One may not count one who denies the truth of Torah Sh'baal Peh - aka The Oral Torah (and certainly one who denies The Written Torah received at Sinai via Moshe Rabbeinu) towards a minyan. [One may not count Conservative or Reform Jews towards a minyan.] Shulchan Aruch w/Mishnah Berurah 55:11, Piskei Tshuvos 55:21"

See here.

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Yes, it's in Mishnah Berurah 55:47: וכל מי שהוא כופר בתורה שבע"פ אין מצטרף לכל דבר שבקדושה. Presumably, though, here's where the well-known distinction between knowing sinners and תינוקות שנשבו (made by the Rambam, Hil. Mamrim 3:3) would apply: if this person was raised in a non-religious home, he might not be considered a knowing כופר. – Alex Jun 17 '11 at 0:33
With regards to Tinuk Shenishbah in modern times, I haven't researched the sources yet, but check out this email, which brings some sources: ottmall.com/mj_ht_arch/v51/mj_v51i92.html#CYO see also here (Chapter 23): hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1122&pgnum=16 – Menachem Jun 17 '11 at 1:10
@Menachem Sefer Shulhan Aruch HaMidot holds that Hilonim in our times (except for those who purposely go against the Torah, and those who were once religious) are Tinok Shenishba. – Hacham Gabriel Apr 1 '12 at 3:19
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No. In general, if the person is willing to violate the sabbath in public and even in front of a great rabbi, we assume he cannot count for a minyan. Rabbi Nachum Rabinovitch, (All Jews Are Responsible for One Another, from "Tradition and the Nontraditional Jew") based on the Rambam, says that chilul shabbos may not disqualify them if they are a tinok shenishba, but they have to accept the halachik requirements of a minyan to be counted for one. The Rambam said that the kaarites could not be counted for a Zimun because they rejected such halachos, so they cannot just be counted in for social reasons.

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So according to Rav Rabinovitch, the answer is that if he is willing (i.e. agrees to participate in a minyan and not be passively counted), then it is okay? – AviD Jun 17 '11 at 7:34
I think he would have to recognize all the halachos of a minyan, such as who can be counted for one. It was based on a Rambam that discussed whether ka'arites could be counted for one. – Ariel K Jun 17 '11 at 14:19
"Recognize", i.e. accept, or know them? If it's the latter, it seems that most would be prevented from counting... – AviD Jun 17 '11 at 14:29
____ accept _________ – Ariel K Jun 17 '11 at 17:56
@Ariel, so if he agrees to participate, he is automatically eligible, simple by reason of agreeing? (This wouldnt include somebody that says "Sure count me if you want, I dont care, I'll just sit here and read my newspaper...") – AviD Jun 18 '11 at 19:35
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up vote -1 down vote

of course an apikores doesn't count for minian, but is not so simple to categorize someone as such, usually people are defined as a kidnapped baby

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a little more details and some sources can turn this into a proper answer. – Menachem Jun 17 '11 at 5:46

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