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I know it's acceptable to have kiddush before Mussaf. Is it acceptable to have kiddush after the kaddish shalem of Shacharit but before the sefer Torah is taken out to be read?

(I believe I've heard the answer is "no" but I can't find a source right now.)


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The question is more precisely "can one eat before krias hatorah" since if one eats a seudah at any time (even before shacharis), it is not only acceptable but he is required to make kiddush. – YDK May 17 '11 at 16:31
@YDK, are you sure one is required to make kidush if he eats a s'uda before shacharis? I seem to recall that the chiyuv kiddush only kicks in after shacharis.... – msh210 May 17 '11 at 20:08
@msh210, I believe you're correct. In fact, some hold that the chiyuv of kiddush doesn't start until after mussaf. – jake May 17 '11 at 20:16
I'll track it down later, but I recall that after shacharis is zeman seudah and therefore zeman kidush and it is forbidden to eat or drink anything. Before that, there is no inherent obligation to make kidush, but if someone has a seudah, he must be mekadesh. The reason why someone is allowed to have cereal before davening to enhance his davening is that cereal is not considered a seudah for this purpose. – YDK May 17 '11 at 20:59
Rav Moshe Feinstein siding with the Mishna Berura O.C. II s.26 3rd to the last paragraph: hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=918&st=&pgnum=200. Not sure where the Biur Halacha is. – YDK May 17 '11 at 23:20
up vote 7 down vote accepted

The general halacha that talks about the prohibition of eating before prayer only says that you cannot eat before finishing shemoneh esrei (Shulchan Aruch OC 89:3). No mention is made of completing Torah reading before eating. The Aruch haShulchan says the same (se'if 23). So according to this (and assuming that there is no other source that talks about it - I perused through hilchot shabbat and checked in שמירת שבת כהלכתה with no mention being made), waiting until after the amidah would be sufficient (מעיקר הדין - of course, with the proviso that in so doing you wouldn't miss out on hearing the Torah reading).

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FWIW, I don't see anything about it in Shaare Efrayim. – msh210 May 17 '11 at 16:26

I don't know about in general, but I was at Aish HaTorah (in Toronto) on Shabbat erev Pesach the last time the calendar fell out that way, and they paused right before the torah service for a meal. This was to satisfy the requirement for a lunch with bread before the deadline for chametz. The meal began with kiddush. Since they could have instead started davening ultra-early to be done in time, I concluded that this was ok at least in exceptional circumstances. I didn't ask for a source, though.

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In our synagogue we break on Rosh Hashana before the Kriat Hatorah.

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I saw the same behaviour during Simh'at Torah. Kiddush was made before the torah service since we did Hakafoth just after opening the Hekhal.

As a justification, Torah service seems to not be included in Chah'arit since it occurs after the Kaddich Titkabal

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In synagogues I've prayed in on Simchas Tora day (except in Chabad), the practice was that each person did not make kidush until he had had his aliya. (Well, maybe some people did not follow that practice, but that was what was supposed to happen, anyway.) – msh210 May 17 '11 at 16:06
Not making kiddush until getting an aliyah on Simchat Torah may not be because you aren't allowed to eat before Torah reading. May be more that if everyone went to eat first, people either wouldn't come back, or would come back with some degree of intoxication. – Yaakov Ellis May 17 '11 at 17:22
@YaakovEllis, quite right. Or that people would not come back in time, so that the gabaim would close off the aliya cycles (no one more to give to) only to have people return and demand aliyos. – msh210 May 17 '11 at 19:30

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