Take the 2-minute tour ×
Mi Yodeya is a question and answer site for those who base their lives on Jewish law and tradition and anyone interested in learning more. It's 100% free, no registration required.

We know that when there is a case of someone that is obligated to perform a mitzvah m'drabbanan (and in fact there are 2 d'rabbanans together) they can't be "motzei" someone in the mitzvah who only has a chiyuv because of 1 d'rabbanan.

Here are some examples of this:

The Mishneh Brurah in Siman 186 Sif-Katan 7 writes that a katan that didn't eat to the point of satiation there are some poskim that hold he may not be motzei his Father who also didn't eat to the point of satiation because his Father has a obligation to say bircas hamazon because of 1 d'rabbanan and his son has an obligation because of 2 d'rabbanans.

Another example is in the Sharei Tzion Siman 271 Sif-Katan 2. If a person davened already friday night then they are obligated in Kiddush m'drabbanan. In such a case the katan could be motzee the gadol since he is also chiyuv m'drabbanan (See there M"B Sif-Katan 2.) However the Sharei Tzion (b'shem the Derech HaChaim) that if the katan already davened he couldn't be motzei the gadol since the katan is 2 d'rabbanans and the gadol is one.

Another example is in Mishneh Brurah Siman 689 Sif-Katan 6. If someone hears from a katan the megillah they are not yotzee. The M"B there explains that even though the chiyuv of a katan by megillah is d'rabbnanan (just like the gadol) still there is an additional d'rabbanan in regards to the fact that the obligation on the katan in general in all mitzvos is d'rabbanan.

I had assumed as well that another example would be kiddush by day. Since for a gadol it's d'rabbanan (one) and for a katan it's two (the kiddush itself together with the general chiyuv (however I don't have a written source for it, I think the above examples are enough for now.

The question is, do we also say the one who has 3 d'rabbanans can't be motzei the one that has 2? (An example would be kiddush by day on yom tov sheini shel golius. The katan has a obligation because of 3 d'rabbanans and the gadol's obligation is because of 2.)

share|improve this question
3  
Can you source that a katan can't be motzi a gadol for kiddush on Shabbat day? –  Double AA Apr 28 '13 at 1:59
    
@DoubleAA at the moment no, however it seems to be pashut. Why would you think other wise? Do you have a source otherwise? –  Yehoshua Apr 28 '13 at 9:09
1  
I don't really suspect otherwise, but you said "We know" and I wanted to know how you know. –  Double AA Apr 28 '13 at 14:44
    
@DoubleAA Thanks for getting me to do some more work here. I hope this is enough and from these examples I believe my assumption is correct (everyone I spoke to has agreed to this however no makor was brought yet. –  Yehoshua Apr 28 '13 at 18:08
    
Much better! +1 from before. See also Tosfot Megillah 19b. Your example of Kiddush on Yom Tov Sheni might not be the best because we (almost) always treat the second day exactly like the first. –  Double AA Apr 28 '13 at 18:11
show 2 more comments

Your Answer

 
discard

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.

Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.