Mi Yodeya is a question and answer site for those who base their lives on Jewish law and tradition and anyone interested in learning more. It's 100% free, no registration required.

Sign up
Here's how it works:
  1. Anybody can ask a question
  2. Anybody can answer
  3. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top

Is it permissible for a man to be at a woman's home at night if both of her parents are at home, but sleeping? What if they are awake?

share|improve this question
    
see here: sie.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2312231/jewish/… -- check out the footnotes as well --- it's not an exact answer, since it only discusses if one of the parents are there, not if both are. I didn't look up the footnotes, so I don't know if they discuss it there. – Menachem Jan 26 '15 at 6:04

[This is an old but highly-upvoted question and the two existing answers on the page are misleading as can be seen in the sources for this answer. So I thought it would be worth answering.]

The laws of yichud are complex, so it is worth CYLOR in specific cases. Nevertheless the answer to the question is yes in both cases (I now checked the reasoning with a rav and talmid hakham)

  • Yichud is allowed in a room which is open (see SA EH 22:9) (according to some poskim, also if closed but unlocked and people can come in at any time, or if there is a clear view into the room)

  • R Doniel Neustadt quotes R Moshe Feinstein as allowing a man to be secluded with a woman in the presence of the man's grandmother, mother, daughter, granddaughter or sister. During nighttime sleeping hours, an additional chaperon is required. A man and a woman may remain alone in a home where the parents of one of them are sleeping.

  • According to R Nissan Dovid Dubov "the presence of a single shomer is effective during the day. However at night, a single shomer is not adequate since the shomer may fall asleep. Therefore, the presence of two shomrim is required at night. Two shomrim are adequate even if both are sleeping, for the man and woman would fear that one shomer might awaken and discover any improper conduct."

See further sources here and there.

share|improve this answer

They would have to be in the same room as either the man or woman. In the same house is not enough, since a closed door is effectively a different place. Since you can not see into it from outside. While sleeping only works if the person is easily roused - a deep sleeper is not an effective shomer. And in a different room is certainly not enough while sleeping, even if it may be OK if the person is awake and you expect they might enter unannounced.

A shomer is not a "game" - the person must actually guard, so anything that prevents that (loud noise, closed door, deep sleeper, etc) negates what they do.

This is on top of all the restrictions in what Menachem linked to.

share|improve this answer
5  
Citations to sources would vastly increase the value of your answer. – msh210 May 13 '12 at 8:28
    
Who says a Shomer is not a "game"? Baalah BaIr "could be" – Shmuel Brin Feb 19 '15 at 4:15
1  
And who says same house isn't good enough? If they could potentially wake up at any moment and walk in, i don't think that's considered yichud. Locked door would be a different story – Daniel Jun 24 '15 at 0:43
1  
Your choice of words "not a game...must actually guard" I think are a bit unclear. The job of a Shomer is to remove the status of 'alone' from Yichud, not an active role, to the best of my knowledge. Additionally, do you have any sources for 'loud noise' prevents a Shomer (I've heard the other cases brought down)? Does that mean you automatically have Yichud next to a construction site, train station, etc? – Salmononius2 Jun 24 '15 at 2:25

Yichud means that you cant be in the same room/enclosed space, with no method of vision into the room (for example windows). So no.

share|improve this answer
    
You need sources to back up your assertions. See my other comments. What you state above appears incorrect. See Halachipedia sources 15 and 17 for instance: "some say that as long as the door is unlocked even if it is closed that area is considered open to the public" and "Practically, some say that one can be lenient ... if people in that area enter without knocking and getting permission" – mbloch Feb 16 at 6:38
    
How does this answer the question? What if the couple is in the lounge with full visibility to the entire house, but the parents are sleeping? Or awake? – Danny Schoemann Feb 16 at 8:19

Your Answer

 
discard

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.