Take the 2-minute tour ×
Mi Yodeya is a question and answer site for those who base their lives on Jewish law and tradition and anyone interested in learning more. It's 100% free, no registration required.

A minyan starts to daven mincha before plag hamincha with the intention to daven maariv after plag hamincha. In the event, mincha is too fast and the borchu of maariv is before plag hamincha while the amida is afterwards.

Is it sufficient (not to be “tartei desasrei” – two contradictory acts) that the amida is in the right time or must borchu be in the right time too?

This assumes that "back to back" davenning is allowed when mincha is before plag and maariv after it. “Tartei desasrei” – two contradictory acts occurs when the plag division is not respected. An example would be when mincha and maariv were after plag. Maariv is in the right time but mincha is in the wrong time – two contradictory acts.

A related question: Mincha started before sheki'a, extended beyond it. What about davenning maariv straight after mincha?

share|improve this question
1  
I'm confused: if back-to-back is allowed, then why are you asking about tarti desatri? –  Double AA Apr 24 '12 at 21:16
    
+1, but the question would be much improved if it contained a brief explanation (or a link to one) of "tarte d'sasre" and its applicability to the z'manim of mincha and maariv. –  msh210 Apr 24 '12 at 21:38
1  
Tried to edit question to take account of the comments above. –  Avrohom Yitzchok Apr 24 '12 at 21:59
2  
I think you are confused about the tarti desatri. Davening mincha and maariv before plag isn't tarti desatri: it's one kosher tefillah and one of brachot levatala. Once you daven mincha before plag, you can't do a tarti desatri even if you tried (well, probably :) ). Your question is really about birkot keriat shema before plag. –  Double AA Apr 24 '12 at 23:54
    
@DoubleAA Thank you for clarifying. –  Avrohom Yitzchok Apr 25 '12 at 15:04
add comment

2 Answers

up vote 2 down vote accepted

It is not only an issue of tartei d'sosrei here; saying birchos kriyas shema before plag is not acceptable, and the brachos are not considered to be drawn after the later time period in which the ma'ariv shemoneh esrei was recited.

Regarding reciting mincha and ma'ariv in the same post-plag time slot: R' Moshe Feinstein holds that the leniency allowing some congregations to apparently violate tartei d'sosrei, even if dubiously applied on a personal basis, definitely does not allow an individual to recite the birchos kriyas shema (which don't have a din of tefillah b'tzibur). This would mean that an individual in the responsum's case should at most recite only the shemoneh esrei with the congregation, even though he will miss juxtaposing geulah to tefillah. (Igros Moshe, OC, Chelek 2, 60)

All the more so should an individual in the case described in the above question avoid reciting birchos kriyas shema with the congregation (which is itself acting improperly). As far as reciting only the shemoneh esrei with the congregation in this case, there might possibly be a basis for doing so if you can't pray with a minyan later in the evening.

As a side note, this hypothetical problem can be avoided if this hypothetical minyan wouldn't rush through their prayers or ignore the clock.

share|improve this answer
    
Do you have a source for your first paragraph (which is the only one that directly answers the question)? –  Double AA Aug 27 '12 at 21:25
add comment

There are basically five schools of thought when approaching the issue of birkot keriat shema post-plag and pre-nightfall (assuming it is not tarti desatri which has, ummm, fewer) because it seems odd to say brachot on shema when you are seemingly not fulfilling the mitzva. They are:

Rav Hai Gaon (quoted in Tur OC 235 and Rosh Brachot 1:1 and more): Daven the Shmone Esrei and say keriat shema with its brachot at night (ie skip semichat geulah letefillah).

Rabbeinu Tam (Brachot 2a): The proper time for keriat shema is after plag, so that's why one can say its brachot then.

Rabbeinu Yonah (Brachot 1a in Rif): Like Rav Hai Gaon, except that after sunset and before nightfall, he thinks that is considered night enough that the brachot are not lies.

Possibly Rashi (Brachot 2a): The brachot are part of the tefillah and can be said at any time the tefillah can. (I say possibly because Rashi doesn't say this, but he doesn't explain any other way explicitly and this opinion is how I always heard it understood. If I find someone who says this explicitly I will edit it in. IIRC Rav Soloveitchik is cited in Nefesh HaRav as holding of this kind of opinion from sunset onward, not plag.)

Gra (Maaseh Rav 65): Never ever say any part of maariv before nightfall no matter what.

So..

Leaving aside the Gra because no one before or after him (that I can find) ruled like him...

And leaving aside Rav Hai Gaon because it doesn't meet your criteria despite its being the earliest discussion on the matter, its being cited approvingly by the Tur and Beit Yosef, its being reported by the Chofetz Chaim's (as quoted here) son that this was the Chofetz Chaim's personal practice, and its basically being the final psak of Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe OC 2:60) and Rav Hershel Shachter (as quoted here)...

We are left with three options:

For Rabbeinu Yonah, if you want to extend his definition of sunset back to plag, you would still be hard pressed to be able to say the brachot before plag as that would certainly be lying.

For Possible Rashi, it would seem that you wouldn't be able to say the brachot before plag as then it isn't the time for tefillah.

For Rabbeinu Tam, there is a possiblitly that one could say the first two brachot before plag so long as keriat shema is said after plag, which according to him (and against an explicit mishna Brachot 1:1) is its appropriate time, because then the brachot are still appropriately attached to the mitzva. However, the 'lying' issue may still bug him. We don't know for sure.

Note that all of the above is true even for someone who did daven mincha before plag!

share|improve this answer
    
torahmusings.com/2012/04/… –  Adam Mosheh Apr 25 '12 at 5:38
add comment

Your Answer

 
discard

By posting your answer, you agree to the privacy policy and terms of service.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.