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There is a variety of placement in siddurim which include Askinu Seudasa and Azamer Bishvachin. Some (Tefila Yeshara, Artscroll if memory serves correctly) put both before Kiddush. Some (Tehilas Hashem) put Askinu Seudasa before Kiddush and Azamer Bishvachin is placed after Hamotzi as a zemer. I have also heard that some say both as zmiros, although I haven't seen a siddur which evidences this practice.

There also seems to sometimes be a variance in practice between evening Kiddush and morning Kiddush.

What are the reasons behind the differing placements? Which groups follow which opinion?

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+1. You might bring ask about s'uda sh'lishis, too. –  msh210 Mar 22 '12 at 21:03
    
@msh210 Good point! I neglected it because there's no Kiddush, but there's still a question of before or after hamotzi. –  yoel Mar 22 '12 at 21:05
    
Some do say kidush at s'uda sh'lishis (though I think those who do so do so after they start to eat). –  msh210 Mar 22 '12 at 21:06
    
@msh210 interesting - any source or association with a particular minhag? –  yoel Mar 22 '12 at 21:13
    
Well, for one thing, it's in bentschers (with the relevant text; it has no b'racha besides hagafen (or hagefen) and is otherwise similar to the morning kidush). I believe some chasidim do it. I know nothing further. –  msh210 Mar 22 '12 at 21:19

1 Answer 1

up vote 2 down vote accepted

I heard it said by R' Eluzer Kenig shlita, the Rav of the Breslev community of Tzfas, that one recites Askinu Seudasa and Azamer Bishvachin after making hamotzi and eating a kezayis of bread.

On the subject, I was told by a talmid of R' Kenig that the Arizal originally composed these zmiros to be recited during the meal. The practice today in Breslev is still to recite them there.

The real question, then, is when they got moved to various places before the meal.

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+1. Who is R' Eluzer Kenig? –  msh210 May 20 '12 at 6:07
    
He is a leading Breslov Rabbi in Tzfas. Did Yoel just "answer" his own question? –  user1292 May 20 '12 at 6:11
    
@msh210 The Rav of the Breslev community of Tzfas. His father was R' Gedalia Kenig ztz'l, who was a talmid of R' Avraham Sternhartz ztz'l, the great-grandson of Reb Noson of Breslev zy'a. –  yoel May 20 '12 at 6:14
    
@mochinrechavim it took me two months but I found the answer! :) –  yoel May 20 '12 at 6:15
    
@mochinrechavim meta.judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/306/… –  Double AA May 20 '12 at 6:33

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